VISITORS PLEASE READ ! ! ! March 2 2004 at 4:24 PM
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Ok, so we have a bunch of holographers here that want to make holograms. Some and probably most are here because they like the challenge and like to create art but Holography is an expensive and very time consuming hobby!!!
SO, my question to you visitors is, tell us the one big question...
WHAT KIND OF HOLOGRAMS DO YOU LIKE?
Be as specific or as vague as you want...WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU !!!
Peace to you all!!!
PS: You do not have to log in to post and can give anonymous information if you want
I would have to say that my favourite holograph would have to be a picture of a something that i don't(and never will) have. Something that allows me to dream of how luxurious life could be, including castles and expensive cars but not limited to material things
bashful is out making holograms, sneezy checking in...
March 5 2004, 9:12 PM
"They are still bashfull I guess. There are not that many responses yet."
I don't think it is a matter of bashfullness but rather that the answer to what kind of holograms we like is probably any at this point. or at least for me it is. I just like holograms in general. the 3D-ness of it all is what is appealing no matter the content.
Of course any content that accentuates the 3d-ness of it (depth, parallax... hence my nickname hehe) is all the better.
For me it is the content of the hologram is the most imported thing.
I except that the illusion of 3D (or the capture of a real image that is then interpreted by our brains as 3d) is an appealing affect which probably attracted us all to holography in the first place.
But I believe it is the content of future holograms that is going to develop the medium as a whole. Without going in to a very long rant, I will try and expand upon that last statement. If we take Photography (or even Film for that matter) but photography is a good comparison, its ability to capture an image, (the very Illusion of the image) would have been the first initial driving force of the first photographers. Then the race to create clear better images, colour images etc naturally follows. This kind of development has to reach a point were the interest in technical ability, and the novelty of being able to capture an image comes to an end. At this point the content of the photography becomes the main driving force for its future development, and the progression of photographic language. I think we are at that point now in holography, no matter how good the hologram is it’s just another 3d spark plug………
When the subject, narrative, scene within the hologram becomes so important that the very fact it a hologram at all is not important, that’s the kind of holograms I like to see.
"When the subject, narrative, scene within the hologram becomes so important that the very fact it a hologram at all is not important, that’s the kind of holograms I like to see."
That is exactly what I was looking for. Forget that it is a hologram and tell us what subject is most apealing for you. Hopefully this will inspire holographers to travel down that road. Examples are welcome.
Yes, if you treat holography as any other medium such as photography or television or books, then you can look to those other mediums and examine thier content, which is essentially a window to all aspects of society and humanity.
We should not let the fact that it's a hologram be the whole message. Even though photographs and TV have flat 2D looks, they have both become emensly popular with the public over the years, due to thier content. I believe this is possible with holography as well.
As with any creative endevour, and especially display holography, it often takes years to gain the solid technical knowledge and a lot of money and time to acquire the equipment required to produce good holograms, it's hard not to be excited when you make a nice hologram of even something so simple as a doll or a cigarette lighter. Yet to the general populus, they look at that for about 5 to 10 seconds and move on. Notice what we do ourselves when looking at TV, art or photos in a magazine, the same thing.
I think we're still too focused on the image. The point about the emergence of photography from a technical subject to a common every-day experience was that it became narrative in nature. This evolution made it more accesible to the general public that doesn't know or care about aberrations and f stops. Even movies were initiallly just people coming out of a factory or a walk in the park - motion just for the sake of motion. When movies evolved to telling stories (some twenty odd years later) they became mainstream. You see this still on the internet. One of the best media for mass expulsion (for lack of a better word) of audio-visual and video content and you still see pages and pages of text. People are expected to get on a website and essentially read large quantites of print apparently made to look more "hi-tech" because of hyperlinking.
I think when holography becomes either more narrative or more challenging for the viewer it will become more acceptible as something the public wants. Right now the public see a scientific curiosity, but not somethin they'd buy and hang up on their living room walls. I was (and still am!) hoping that an intermediate step might be to incorporate holograms into everyday products and remove the concept of buying a science toy or gimmick.
All this brings to mind something I saw on a bus - "The universe is not made of atoms - it's made of stories"
This question of “what to put in the hologram” is a biggie.
And I know (Johnfp) you asked me what do I want to see, but my answer would be a bit different to most peoples, because this is a question I have been wrestling with for some time (over six years) through university and now within industry.
Unfortunately my ideas have in the past been exploited and I have had some bad experience with people within the hologram business. I must stress that this really is the minority and most people within the hologram field are extremely helpful and nice. But “once bitten twice shy” as they say.
I would love to elaborate further into the content I have been working on but this really is my field of expertise and giving up these ideas would affect my future.
What I can say is that there are many subjects that are very suited to the field of holography, as there subject matter can be explored even further due to the unique properties holograms posses.
Animated or stereo holograms for me are the holograms with the greatest potential. The key the hologapher must remember (And I do appreciate all the technical difficulties you guys overcome and I could not even begin to solve half of them that’s why I need people like yourselves) Is understanding what the viewer sees, unlike any other medium the viewers movement through space affects the images they see.
In the words of Dr Stephen Benton,
“A hologram is like a window with a memory”
If you what me to discuss Ideas with you I will have to e-mail you directly.
Andy, Thanks for sharing! I would never want you to disclose any ideas that may make you the dollar that puts food on you table. You will see that I am not like most and will share my ideas in the hope that someone will use them to the advantage of promoting holography. Feel free to use any ideas or insights in your holographic pursuit. As of right now holography does not pay the bills so I do not have to worry about giving away the idea that keeps me in the money. Yes, I would love to patent an idea that could make me rich but could I really get rich on an idea that targets the "holographers" community? I think not, I was writing a program for holographers that I though would sell but I thought, if there 100 serious holographers in the world I would have to charge 10,000.00 each to make a million, and that is if they all bought. So you see, I respect what you do and how you do it, and again, I hope one day I may give you an idea that not only helps you realize income because of holography but can actually promote "holography".
I think my question was targeted to the viewers, collectors and admirers of hologram and not the holographers.
BTW, I see stereograms as the format for the public. Yep, making a hologram of something they have experienced it where it will be. I have a few really good ideas about making a more efficient "time" stereogram. If you are interested let me know and I will tell you on this board. You will have to be quick as others will hear it also. I mentioned it once and if you are not working on it yet, you are missing out.
You have my e-mail. Feel free to dicuss anyting you want, I am sure you will find I will not discose anyting you state not to discose! I may have some good ideas for you!!!
Peace, longevity, happiness and prosperity in that order!
... Execution is everything. It was hard to tell from your not very informative post, but I get the impression that you are looking at making commercial novelty items and not art holograms. If so, here's a freebie:
Holographic touch-switch that imitates old fashioned toggle switch - LEDS from different angles light multiplex transmission hologram from behind, producing image of a virtual switch that shows the ON/OFF state of the switch. The idea is probably silly and obvious enough to have already been patented, but you never know.
Don't ever dismiss an idea because you think it's silly. In the late 70's/early 80's Hamish Shearer was selling holograms at a street market in London. He realised that the problem was supply, holographers couldn't make holograms fast enough to supply demand. He came across pulse lasers, built a "holocopier" that could make holograms much like a Xerox copy machine and created a company based on the idea. He also thought the idea was obvious and someone must have thought of it, but nobody had. The company was and is now Applied Holographics, today a Very Big Name in holography. I think I was employee #7 or something.
I should have made it clearer that my use of "silly" was not necessarily dismissive. I meant it in the sense of "wacky" or "sublimely ridiculous" which is a GOOD thing.
I LOVE silly patents.
Ideas are a dime a dozen (but great ideas are priceless)
March 21 2004, 4:44 PM
"Execution is everything. It was hard to tell from your not very informative post, but I get the impression that you are looking at making commercial novelty items and not art holograms"
I do not agree completely that “Execution is everything” execution for executions sake is a waste of time, knowing exactly what is worth spending time and effort on is just as important, and it is only the good ideas that deserve this time. Both the idea and then its execution are equally as important. This is proven time and time again. Take a film for example; the script (idea) is the fundamental starting point, if this is crap then no matter how good the execution the film will still be crap.
The title for your post “Ideas are a dime a dozen” is, I think an incomplete one. Ideas may be a dime a dozen but great ideas are priceless. Your assumption that I am looking at novelty items is incorrect, I am working with the integration of holograms within objects through the encapsulation of holographic materials, the replacement of existing objects with holographic alternatives, and the development of holographic language. The development of holographic language is key to the development of holographic Art and the use of holograms to communicate messages.
You believe that my last post was “not very informative” and I can understand why you think this, but I think you missed the point. I have been a hologram lover for many years, as are many people who write on this site. I would expect that most of us fall into the “scientific artist” category. By that I mean we do not completely sit in one category or the other, we love technology and we also love the wow factor and beauty of these unbelievable images. The problem we come up against time and time again, is that making holograms as so dam difficult. We are all perfectionists, because we have to be, and this means that the first thing we look for are dull spots and the imperfections. That’s why we chose a spark plug or a chine figure to make a hologram of, because these objects make the process slightly easier. What I was trying to say is that most finished holograms contain an image and it is this image that is seen and interpreted by others, so it is fundamental for holograms that the image connects to the viewer in some way.
If you are a skilled holographer and have mastered most of the problems, I believe the content of the holograms you are making should drive the hologram process. When doing this you should be thinking of what makes a hologram different to any other medium. I gave you the example of a viewer’s movement through space effecting what they are seeing. And this should not be over looked. For example if you make a stereo hologram of a man with a gun pointed it at an animal (or person) As the viewer passes the hologram, the man with the gun raises and aims the gun At this point the viewer would have to make a decision, whether to continue and watch the hologram play out the logical conclusion or stop, effectively stopping the event from happening, even moving back in the opposite direction so the event rewinds its self. This is a crude example but demonstrates the idea.
Johnfp I would be grateful if you could share you stereo hologram idea, I do not have a lab at the moment but I am sure my holographer friends could make use of it. Have you done any work on edge lit holograms?
Re: Ideas are a dime a dozen (but great ideas are priceless)
March 21 2004, 10:25 PM
A fair response to an exaggerated statement of position - indeed perfect execution cannot save a bad idea, which is why it's best to have lots of ideas floating around and pick only good ones.
Re your animated gun scene example, I once discussed a sort of similar scene (relying on the viewer to connect objects in a scene and imagine their wicked use) with an artist friend who told me that this is an ancient technique known as "implicating the viewer".
Well, I like a hologram that work! I am a high school student building a hologram for a physics project and I was hoping that maybe some of you experts could help me out a little bit by giving me some advise. First, Is there a difference between a holograph and hologram?
Does anyone understand the physics principals behind a hologram (ie. the interferance and the phase shift)? Can you use a standard mirror in place of the film to get a temporary image instead of creating a picture?
Thanks alot if you can answer any of these questions that would be greatly appreciated my e-mail address is tserob@hotmail.com
The web is a great source of information. It's what helped me get back into holography after a 30 hiatus - I made my first hologram when I was in high school too.
For a great detailed explanation of how they work, and all the different types, you can't do better than to go to one of the original horses mouths. Although it has the math included, you don't really need to understand all the equations. For Steve Benton's lecture notes, see:
As for spatial filters, variable ratio beam splitters and such, you don't need all of that just to make your first hologram. I'd suggest you walk before you run - maybe start with the excellent book 'Shoebox Holography' - its a very detailed and informative book that will get you through your first Denisyuk hologram - a great place to start. see:
How do you keep the equipment in the right spot and angle?
March 10 2004, 2:44 PM
Hi i was setting up my mirrors and what not when i couldn't figure out how to secure the mirrors to anything. What should i do? What do you use to support your mirrors?
and I happen to use an adjustable base that is attached to my "standard" mount using a 10lb magnet
It's not a great picture but it's the closest I get. I'll take something better soon.
You should troll and read some of the pages linked at the bottom of the forum. You'll see examples of just about every possible kind of mounting mechanism.
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If someone says it can't be done but they haven't tried it, don't believe them. http://www.dragonseye.com/Holography
Your mounts look complicated. What is the simpliest/cheapest mounting design could i use (this is just for a school project we aren't using film but a piece of paper for a temporary instanteous image)? What supplies would i need for this type of mount?
Your mounts look complicated. What is the simpliest/cheapest mounting design could i use (this is just for a school project we aren't using film but a piece of paper for a temporary instanteous image)?
Actually the mounts I use are very simple. Take a look at the Aug 2nd entry below. My basic mount is made out of materials you can easily pick up at the hardware store. The only tools you need are a hammer and hacksaw.
"What do you mean when you write that you "aren't using film but a piece of paper for a temporary instanteous image)?" "
I suspect that Rob's school project is to show the principle, without actually making the hologram. If this is so, Rob, you don't need any special mount since you don't need stability. Stick the mirror on a wooden dowel with blu-tack or something and mount it on a wooden platform.
Yes, my project is explaining the physics principles of interference, phase shift, coherence and the properties of the laser but we still are required to produce a holograph, but because we do not have time or resources to develope the film we are going to place a blank sheet of paper where the film should have gone so that the light that would have been obsorbed by the film is reflected off of the paper producing the "temporary instanteous imagery". What is a wooden dowel, blu-tack and a wooden platform? yes the stablity is not crucial because the film has been removed.
I have never done this because my film will resolve 1000s of lines per millimeter. The people who use fringe lockers have to expand some of the beam to sizes one could see. In order to see any fringes you will need to observe the stability requirements of holography.
I think there may be a little confusion here. To make the hologram, you need two beams - the reflected light off the object, or object beam, and the direct light hitting the plate or film, the reference beam. You can use single beam or double beam techniques. You don't have to use a beamsplitter. In fact, a number of people on this forum don't. To make single beam, you place the object behind the plate or film and hit it (the object) through the plate. The light hits the object, reflects and comes back to hit the plate so that light hits both the front and the back simultaneously thus forming reference and object beams. You can also use a beamsplitter and steer part of the light around the back of the plate or film and illuminate the object independantly, while the other part of the light hits the plate or film.
To make a laser transmission, you place the object in front of the plate (about 6 to 8in), split the beam and have part hit the object and part hit the plate or film. You can also make a single beam transmission by expanding the beam quite a bit and having one part of the diverging beam hit the object and one part hit the plate. The part hitting the object must reflect back onto the plate or film.
Where the two beams meet, at the plate or film, the "holographic data" is a series of very fine lines, about 1500 - 2000 lines/mm. Since the hologram is a photograph of these lines, just like any photograph it'll blur if the "camera" (your holographic setup) moves while you're taking the picture. Since this picture usually means opening the "shutter" for about 10 seconds or more, the "camera" mustn't move to within the detail of your picture (1/1500 mm or about half the width of your hair) in the time of exposure. If you're not actually making a hologram, these stability requirements are unecessary. However, you won't actually see the lines because they're too small. All you'll see is a uniformly illuminated piece of paper.
So are you saying that if i use a piece of paper in place of the film i won't see the image reflected off of the paper? - b/c that is what my entire presentation is based on. we have everything set up we are now just changing the laser to make it more powerfull.
The laser beam is reflected into the beam splitter. The reference beam is then sent to a divering lense then reflected off of the parabolic mirror(my focus point is 119 cm)into where the photo plate should be.
The object beam is also sent through a divering lense and reflected off of the object scene
does that make scense?
It sounds like you could record a hologram like this if you had the stability required. Does the object beam hit the plate from the same side as the reference beam or the opposite side?
However what you are expecting is a real image. Inorder to do this you need to use a hologram or a mirror to form one. If you don't have time to make a hologram then you could use this one for http://holokits.com
"Telephone"
Transmission hologram of full-size telephone with a magnifier in front of it. When illuminated with our diode laser, you can see an absolutely sharp virtual image with the magnifier "working" as it should. Demonstrates data storage capacity of holograms.
Then the set up you have made will make a transmision hologram. The word holograph is not often used and it seems to be used inconsistantly so I stay away from it. The hologram of the telephone has the lens inside of it. A hologram can contain optics. It is quite a cool thing to look at.
This hologram is designed to be view by taking a beam and diverging it and shining it on the plate. If you reverse the plate from the way it was shot then it will project a real image. (I have not seen this hologram in person so I am not sure where the image is.) If you were to put a white card in this image you would see the image on the card. If you move the card different parts of the image will come into focus. If you then send a reference beam to this card you are set up to make a copy of a hologram. This I think would give you all of the things you want to demonstrate, an image, a table layout with a laser, a method to make a hologram. It is quite stunning to see. All you would need to build is a holder for the hologram.
That is exactly what i wanted to do!
Iget the laser fixed tomorrow and then i am going to try all of this out. All of you guys on this site have been such a help thanks
I think Rob you have a misconception of what a hologram is. A hologram, which would be recorded on a piece of film if you placed it in your setup (assuming your setup is correct)is a record of an interference pattern, which can be used to recreate an original image.
It is not the image itself!
It's as if you're using a text editor to view a .jpg file. All you'll see is binary numbers. But if you take that record of binary numbers and process them with a jpeg viewer, you can get the original image back again.
The hologram is a record of the original amplitude and phase information, encoded as an interference pattern.
In order to get an image, you must reconstruct the image from the pattern using a reconstruction setup.
The pattern on the paper is too small to see, but if you could see it, it would be like looking at the jpg file with a text editor - just unrecognizable swirls and stripes.
"Can i use a digital camera and deve;op that film"
No. Commercial film is usually around 200 l/mm, digital film has a ccd that's, I believe, about a cm across. If this has a resolution of 500 pixels, that's 500 pixels over 10mm, or 50 pixels/mm. To make a hologram, you need to capture with something that has much higher densities than that. However, the resolution is dependant on the angle between the beams and is given by
wavelength*resolution = sin(angle between beams).
So, if you have a medium capable of resolving 900 l/mm and you're using a diode laser (wavelength = 670nm or 0.00067 mm - watch your units!) then the angle between beams is (inverse sin)(0.00067*900) = 37 degrees. Now, I think that the X-ray film used by dentists has a resolution of about 900 l/mm (photographers, correct me if I'm wrong!), so if you can persuade your friendly neighborhood dentists to let you have some film, and you keep the interbeam angle down to below 35 degrees you might be able to use this. Bear in mind, now you're making a real hologram you'll need stability again.
I belive that x-ray film would not be suitable because the film is designed to provide the least x-ray exposure time to the patient. So the film would be a high speed film, with I think, a resolution of 20 to 10 lines per mm. A lot of x-ray film has both sides coated with a silver halide emulsion to again, cut down on exposure time.
The laser beam is reflected into the beam splitter. The reference beam is then sent to a divering lense then reflected off of the parabolic mirror(my focus point is 119 cm)into where the photo plate should be.
The object beam is also sent through a divering lense and reflected off of the object scene
does that make scense?
It does... You have everything set up to record a hologram (assuming this is all on a stable surface).
Now you just need the film and chemicals. I recommend the budget holokit from Integraf http://www.holokits.com/holography_kit.htm
(you can use the cheap disposable tupperware containers for developing trays).
If for some reason you don't want to or can't make a hologram for your presentation, you could buy one of the demonstration holograms also available from Integraf and use that show show what the end-result of your setup would be like.
Also, no you can't use paper or a digital camera in the film holder. You won't actually see an image projected on the paper, only diffused light being reflected from the scene. Neither one has the resolution to record holographic fringes.
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If someone says it can't be done but they haven't tried it, don't believe them. http://www.dragonseye.com/Holography
The process is similar (develop, stop, rise, etc) but the details are sufficiently different that you can't just take your holographic film to the local shop and have it developed.
Has anyone read "Holograghs for Dummies" because that is the only book that i can find that has anything to do with holographs/grams at my book store? -and what is the difference between hologram and holograph? -is there one?
I think what should be done in any case is if a post is made that is very off the thread subject then most of us frequent posters should respond to the off-subject post by starting another thread as a reply. It's a shame because I was really hoping to get some replies to that post that could benefit us all.
Michael tried this but the thread continued into this one as well. Perhaps when the new server is ready I will simply edit the forum structure on a daily basis to help us out. I'll have to think aobut how this would work.
I only participate regularly in three forums and of the three thread hijacking happens more here than at the other two. I'm referring to cases where people reply to a thread with something completely off-topic or they reply to a portion of the thread such that their reply has nothing to do with the post they're replying to but rather should have been attached to some other part of the thread.
I'm not sure why it happens so much here. Part of the reason could be the message layout, part could just be the nature of the participants.
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If someone says it can't be done but they haven't tried it, don't believe them. http://www.dragonseye.com/Holography
I´ve understand you want to know more about us ?
Name: Andy Country: Germany
I make holograms for almost 3 years (as hobby).
on begin i was working with a 7 mW hene laser making simple transmisions holograms.
After i made some split beam transmisions and
denysiuk reflections, i tried some image plane transmisions holograms 4x5 on pfg01 and 03 with very good results. I`ve made also some nice rainbow H2 some time ago. Last year i rented a small room and created my own small laboratory. Same time i also changed to a 532 20mW slm DPSS and vrp m Plates. Since then i couldn`t do any good hologram anymore. I`ve tried almost all possible setups, all kind of developers, everything to get low noise for the H1
I´ve burned also some tousands of euro with the 30x40 cm vrp Plates, contacted also Gentlet for his Ultimate
and tried also some of the new Orwo for 532 nm.
I`m also almost all the time working in diff. countries so i have to make allways long breaks with my hobby and i´m giving up. I am allready a holofreak ...
I have no experience with DPSS lasers for holography, but some here do. They might be able to help, given more information. Some questions to start with:
Have you decided that there a problem with the DPSS laser? What type is it? (manufacturer/model number) Can you get good stable fringes with it in an interferometer setup? Can you still make good holograms with the HeNe in the same lab? Is your safelight safe for green sensitive film?
